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	Comments on: A Paradoxical Puzzle For Ethical Utilitarians	</title>
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	<link>https://www.spencergreenberg.com/2018/04/a-paradoxical-puzzle-for-ethical-utilitarians/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Milli		</title>
		<link>https://www.spencergreenberg.com/2018/04/a-paradoxical-puzzle-for-ethical-utilitarians/#comment-60106</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Milli]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2025 11:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.spencergreenberg.com/?p=4499#comment-60106</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s a strawman utilitarian. As there&#039;s no limit to the number of rounds, the number of rounds (payout per round) shouldn&#039;t factor into the calculation. The only relevant part is avoiding wipeout, as the payout is arbitrarily high if that&#039;s achieved.

Note: The game is underspecified; it doesn&#039;t mention if fractional credits exist.
- If fractional credits exist, the player can&#039;t get wiped out if not betting 100% of their credits, so they bet 90% (or 50% or 99%) at each step and then play &quot;infinite&quot; rounds.
- If payout is rounded (down), then going below 5 (10) credits makes it impossible to make a profit. To reduce the chance of that happening as much as possible, the player should bet 10 in every step, making wipeout extremely unlikely (and in fact it gets unlikelier the bigger the stash grows).

To me it&#039;s not even relevant if the player is utilitarian. Any reasonable moral system would use the same strategy.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a strawman utilitarian. As there&#8217;s no limit to the number of rounds, the number of rounds (payout per round) shouldn&#8217;t factor into the calculation. The only relevant part is avoiding wipeout, as the payout is arbitrarily high if that&#8217;s achieved.</p>
<p>Note: The game is underspecified; it doesn&#8217;t mention if fractional credits exist.<br />
&#8211; If fractional credits exist, the player can&#8217;t get wiped out if not betting 100% of their credits, so they bet 90% (or 50% or 99%) at each step and then play &#8220;infinite&#8221; rounds.<br />
&#8211; If payout is rounded (down), then going below 5 (10) credits makes it impossible to make a profit. To reduce the chance of that happening as much as possible, the player should bet 10 in every step, making wipeout extremely unlikely (and in fact it gets unlikelier the bigger the stash grows).</p>
<p>To me it&#8217;s not even relevant if the player is utilitarian. Any reasonable moral system would use the same strategy.</p>
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		<title>
		By: bean		</title>
		<link>https://www.spencergreenberg.com/2018/04/a-paradoxical-puzzle-for-ethical-utilitarians/#comment-58965</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bean]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2025 02:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.spencergreenberg.com/?p=4499#comment-58965</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think a simpler example you could give would be:

&quot;A utilitarian is offered a coinflip with an 0.1% chance of multiplying utility by a million, and a 99.9% chance of destroying everything.&quot;

I think that example captures the message you wanted to highlight with this post, that most people wouldn&#039;t approve of an approach that ignores risk in favor of maximizing expected value.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a simpler example you could give would be:</p>
<p>&#8220;A utilitarian is offered a coinflip with an 0.1% chance of multiplying utility by a million, and a 99.9% chance of destroying everything.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think that example captures the message you wanted to highlight with this post, that most people wouldn&#8217;t approve of an approach that ignores risk in favor of maximizing expected value.</p>
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		<title>
		By: bean		</title>
		<link>https://www.spencergreenberg.com/2018/04/a-paradoxical-puzzle-for-ethical-utilitarians/#comment-58963</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bean]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2025 02:39:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.spencergreenberg.com/?p=4499#comment-58963</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[There are more strategies that your character didn&#039;t consider. For example, they could have compared:
(A) bet 100% of available credits once
(B) bet 10% of available credits, twenty times
and noticed that option (B) had a higher expected utility than (A).

Of course there are better strategies than (B) as well.

What&#039;s happening here is that there are an infinite number of strategies, and many of them have an infinite expected payout. In your story, you&#039;re effectively comparing:
(C) bet 100% of available credits, an infinite number of times
(D) bet 10% of available credits, an infinite number of times
and your claim is that a utilitarian &quot;has to choose (C) because it has higher expected utility&quot;.
But both (C) and (D) have infinite expected utility! Neither of them is higher! They&#039;re both infinity!

Also, (C) and (D) are both much worse than the strategy a utilitarian would *actually* use, which would be:
(E) choose a target number T, like 10^30. Bet 10% of available credits, and repeat until you have 0 credits or T credits, and then stop.

Once a target number T is chosen, now all the numbers are finite, and it becomes possible to compute expected values without getting confused. At that point we can notice that we should be doing Kelly betting.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are more strategies that your character didn&#8217;t consider. For example, they could have compared:<br />
(A) bet 100% of available credits once<br />
(B) bet 10% of available credits, twenty times<br />
and noticed that option (B) had a higher expected utility than (A).</p>
<p>Of course there are better strategies than (B) as well.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s happening here is that there are an infinite number of strategies, and many of them have an infinite expected payout. In your story, you&#8217;re effectively comparing:<br />
(C) bet 100% of available credits, an infinite number of times<br />
(D) bet 10% of available credits, an infinite number of times<br />
and your claim is that a utilitarian &#8220;has to choose (C) because it has higher expected utility&#8221;.<br />
But both (C) and (D) have infinite expected utility! Neither of them is higher! They&#8217;re both infinity!</p>
<p>Also, (C) and (D) are both much worse than the strategy a utilitarian would *actually* use, which would be:<br />
(E) choose a target number T, like 10^30. Bet 10% of available credits, and repeat until you have 0 credits or T credits, and then stop.</p>
<p>Once a target number T is chosen, now all the numbers are finite, and it becomes possible to compute expected values without getting confused. At that point we can notice that we should be doing Kelly betting.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Spencer		</title>
		<link>https://www.spencergreenberg.com/2018/04/a-paradoxical-puzzle-for-ethical-utilitarians/#comment-58953</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Spencer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2025 21:50:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.spencergreenberg.com/?p=4499#comment-58953</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.spencergreenberg.com/2018/04/a-paradoxical-puzzle-for-ethical-utilitarians/#comment-58941&quot;&gt;Peter&lt;/a&gt;.

Agreed, it does in real life - but by definition, utilitarians don&#039;t care about risk (or risk of ruin), they just care about maximizing expected value! So I don&#039;t think the Kelly criterion solves this for the puzzle itself.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.spencergreenberg.com/2018/04/a-paradoxical-puzzle-for-ethical-utilitarians/#comment-58941">Peter</a>.</p>
<p>Agreed, it does in real life &#8211; but by definition, utilitarians don&#8217;t care about risk (or risk of ruin), they just care about maximizing expected value! So I don&#8217;t think the Kelly criterion solves this for the puzzle itself.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jáchym Šimko		</title>
		<link>https://www.spencergreenberg.com/2018/04/a-paradoxical-puzzle-for-ethical-utilitarians/#comment-58944</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jáchym Šimko]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2025 20:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.spencergreenberg.com/?p=4499#comment-58944</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[Edit: I added a line between paragraphs]
I can’t directly point out the mistake in the mathematical reasoning but we all know that it led to a guaranteed ruin. This was a predictable consequence, so the expected utility calculation must have been wrong and naive. As I understand it, if the person bet only a fraction of their credits, say 10%, they’d be essentially guaranteed to reach infinite utility in infinite number of rounds. This solution with fraction bets seems to maximize utility, not the original one, which took into account only the expected utility after a finite number of rounds.

I think the experiment could be strengthened. Let’s consider a player who must choose to bet all credits or withdraw from the lottery and retain the credits, while keeping the probabilities (99% and 1%) and changes in credits (times 1.1 and lose everything) the same. A utilitarian seems to be required by the expected value theory to always bet because the potential gain is larger than the potential loss. By the loss I mean the credits that the player loses as a result of the bet. I believe this loss is real but the article deals only with the average number of credits returned to the player, not the average amount they will have available after the bet which seems more relevant to me. As in the previous example, however, the utilitarian is invariably destined to lose the bet sooner or later.

What I think solves the problem is either something akin to diminishing marginal returns from utility or minimalist theories that are primarily focused on reducing suffering, not increasing pleasure. The decision-maker from the latter group will simply bet as long as there’re enough sentient beings who can be alleviated from suffering. Once the limit is reached, it’s not possible to increase credits (that is, utility) by 10%. At the stage when the utility can be increased utmost by around 2%, the player is indifferent between betting or leaving because they will not, on average, increase the number of utility (eg. 1000*1.02*0.99-1000*0.01 ≈ 1000).

As far as I can tell, this solution to this problem should not create paradoxes of this nature, but I might have made mistakes in the math calculations, so please do point them out to me. Thank you.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[Edit: I added a line between paragraphs]<br />
I can’t directly point out the mistake in the mathematical reasoning but we all know that it led to a guaranteed ruin. This was a predictable consequence, so the expected utility calculation must have been wrong and naive. As I understand it, if the person bet only a fraction of their credits, say 10%, they’d be essentially guaranteed to reach infinite utility in infinite number of rounds. This solution with fraction bets seems to maximize utility, not the original one, which took into account only the expected utility after a finite number of rounds.</p>
<p>I think the experiment could be strengthened. Let’s consider a player who must choose to bet all credits or withdraw from the lottery and retain the credits, while keeping the probabilities (99% and 1%) and changes in credits (times 1.1 and lose everything) the same. A utilitarian seems to be required by the expected value theory to always bet because the potential gain is larger than the potential loss. By the loss I mean the credits that the player loses as a result of the bet. I believe this loss is real but the article deals only with the average number of credits returned to the player, not the average amount they will have available after the bet which seems more relevant to me. As in the previous example, however, the utilitarian is invariably destined to lose the bet sooner or later.</p>
<p>What I think solves the problem is either something akin to diminishing marginal returns from utility or minimalist theories that are primarily focused on reducing suffering, not increasing pleasure. The decision-maker from the latter group will simply bet as long as there’re enough sentient beings who can be alleviated from suffering. Once the limit is reached, it’s not possible to increase credits (that is, utility) by 10%. At the stage when the utility can be increased utmost by around 2%, the player is indifferent between betting or leaving because they will not, on average, increase the number of utility (eg. 1000*1.02*0.99-1000*0.01 ≈ 1000).</p>
<p>As far as I can tell, this solution to this problem should not create paradoxes of this nature, but I might have made mistakes in the math calculations, so please do point them out to me. Thank you.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Peter		</title>
		<link>https://www.spencergreenberg.com/2018/04/a-paradoxical-puzzle-for-ethical-utilitarians/#comment-58941</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2025 20:05:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.spencergreenberg.com/?p=4499#comment-58941</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This is the gambler&#039;s ruin problem with positive expected return, and it has an optimal solution (by a reasonable-seeming standard of optimality): the Kelly criterion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_criterion]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the gambler&#8217;s ruin problem with positive expected return, and it has an optimal solution (by a reasonable-seeming standard of optimality): the Kelly criterion. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_criterion" rel="nofollow ugc">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_criterion</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Matt		</title>
		<link>https://www.spencergreenberg.com/2018/04/a-paradoxical-puzzle-for-ethical-utilitarians/#comment-58940</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2025 20:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.spencergreenberg.com/?p=4499#comment-58940</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[There isn&#039;t a paradox here really, and our utilitarian is quite foolish.  When they choose a wager and gets more credits, they do not actually increase the utility of anyone.  They only increase utility by the action of *exiting the room*.  So they can&#039;t consider each move in isolation, but need to think about the longer term, in which case it is obvious that you shouldn&#039;t bet everything until you lose.  The ability to make further wagers is incredibly (even approaching infinitely) valuable, and giving that up when there is no limit on the game is foolish.  (Conversely, if the game was limited to five tries, sure, wager everything every time.)

There&#039;s an another way of thinking about it that also shows this, which is looking to the logarithmic value of the utility, that is, how many times you double it (or halve it, in the negative case) from the baseline.  Again, we note that we can play forever.  What&#039;s the optimal strategy from the POV of getting to some desired level in less time (so you don&#039;t get bored)?  If you math it out, it&#039;s around risking 99% of the tokens every round, which needs 24.4 rounds of play to expect to double the current tokens.

At that point, one can contemplate possibly more interesting questions, like &#039;if there is more utility than happiest-ever-for-everyone-alive-now, does it engage something like Homestuck Trickster Mode for everyone, or is it applied to future generations?&#039; and &#039;if it does save for later generations, how does our utilitarian tear themselves away from &quot;I&#039;ve made everything glorious and beautiful for everyone for a million years, but with just an hour more, it could be two million years, would it be wrong to stop?&quot; and the like&#039;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There isn&#8217;t a paradox here really, and our utilitarian is quite foolish.  When they choose a wager and gets more credits, they do not actually increase the utility of anyone.  They only increase utility by the action of *exiting the room*.  So they can&#8217;t consider each move in isolation, but need to think about the longer term, in which case it is obvious that you shouldn&#8217;t bet everything until you lose.  The ability to make further wagers is incredibly (even approaching infinitely) valuable, and giving that up when there is no limit on the game is foolish.  (Conversely, if the game was limited to five tries, sure, wager everything every time.)</p>
<p>There&#8217;s an another way of thinking about it that also shows this, which is looking to the logarithmic value of the utility, that is, how many times you double it (or halve it, in the negative case) from the baseline.  Again, we note that we can play forever.  What&#8217;s the optimal strategy from the POV of getting to some desired level in less time (so you don&#8217;t get bored)?  If you math it out, it&#8217;s around risking 99% of the tokens every round, which needs 24.4 rounds of play to expect to double the current tokens.</p>
<p>At that point, one can contemplate possibly more interesting questions, like &#8216;if there is more utility than happiest-ever-for-everyone-alive-now, does it engage something like Homestuck Trickster Mode for everyone, or is it applied to future generations?&#8217; and &#8216;if it does save for later generations, how does our utilitarian tear themselves away from &#8220;I&#8217;ve made everything glorious and beautiful for everyone for a million years, but with just an hour more, it could be two million years, would it be wrong to stop?&#8221; and the like&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Phillip		</title>
		<link>https://www.spencergreenberg.com/2018/04/a-paradoxical-puzzle-for-ethical-utilitarians/#comment-58912</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phillip]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2025 10:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.spencergreenberg.com/?p=4499#comment-58912</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The nature of the game works similar to tracing y=1/x from the right to left x axis. The moment you want to maximalize with x=0, you get nothing. If you had just taken a step back, and let x be an infinitesimal, you&#039;d actually maximalize. But the math does make guide you to x=0. Pure math simply does not yield the best result, which is indeed an interesting paradox.

Given the rules, and the fact that the human population is finite but the amount of game repetition is infinite, you actually have a solution, just not in the nature of pure maximalization. Amazing essay, got me thinking a lot.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The nature of the game works similar to tracing y=1/x from the right to left x axis. The moment you want to maximalize with x=0, you get nothing. If you had just taken a step back, and let x be an infinitesimal, you&#8217;d actually maximalize. But the math does make guide you to x=0. Pure math simply does not yield the best result, which is indeed an interesting paradox.</p>
<p>Given the rules, and the fact that the human population is finite but the amount of game repetition is infinite, you actually have a solution, just not in the nature of pure maximalization. Amazing essay, got me thinking a lot.</p>
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